I am not in favor of banning things that are “Liked” by name in a little document called the Constitution. However, I’ve never felt the need to own an AR15 (the big scary gun that liberals call an “assault rifle”). I totally get why some people want one and why others really do need one (or more), and I totally respect their right to have an AR15. More power to them. But since I don’t hunt, and I don’t live in a wide open space where I might be attacked by a [whatever animal would be duly deflected by an AR-15], and there are probably several hundred houses and pedestrians within the range of a rifle bullet, and since an AR15 would run me well over a grand, I personally haven’t brought myself to buy one. Yet.
I’ve often had this back and forth with my trainers. If I’ve got a spare $1,500 (which is rare), AND if I’m also in a position to earmark that cash for personal defense (as opposed to, say, the mortgage), then am I going to buy an AR15? Or would I use those funds to tighten up the gear I actually use every day? Or would I spend it on training with the gear I’ve got?
My trainers’ response: “Everybody needs a rifle. You never know…” Then of course like a dutiful pupil I ask, “and why is that, Sensei?” To which their response is usually something like this…
So, let me make sure I understand. I need an AR15 in case of the Zombie Apocalypse? [You do understand that that is a mooooovie, right?] If that’s the best reason you’ve got, I’ll keep my $1,500. But my trainers are persistent cusses. Their next bullet point (sorry, couldn’t resist) is usually something like,
Well, Memphis is on a fault line. We’re overdue for a giant earthquake. What if that happens and then we have a Katrina-like state of anarchy on our hands? It’ll be Armageddon. When the looters descend upon your house, are you gonna trust your life to your measly sidearm?
My answer: Hmm. I see your point, but in that case I’ll just go for the shotgun. Their response:
You’re wrong. You need a rifle. Stopping power, ammunition capacity, accuracy, speed of fire, sheer intimidation factor, etc. etc….
And on and on we go, back and forth. So far, no one has been able to convince me that I absolutely must have an AR15 (again, if I were swimming in cash, the decision would be much easier). Don’t get me wrong, they are very fun to shoot, but I’ve always been worried that rifle bullets would sail through walls and take out playground dwellers down the block. Then again, if there was some sort of mass-casualty event, I suppose playgrounds down the street would be the least of my problems.
So the earthquake scenario is more convincing than the Zombie Apocalypse. But I still have yet to fork over that small fortune for an AR. [Let me take this opportunity to address the “How much is your life worth?” crowd. That’s a cool soundbite, but in reality it doesn’t always fly unless you’re Mitt Romney or Warren Buffett. Of course my life is priceless. That doesn’t mean I can spare $1,500 to buy an AR15 right this second. Just sayin’.] Anyway, where was I? Oh yes, taking my chances on the Zombie Apocalypse. Well, now there’s this:
Wait, what? Five hundred cops out? Seriously? Now, if I’m not mistaken Memphis has about 2,200 police officers. I wasn’t a math major, but isn’t that damn-near a quarter of the force? And another source reported the number at nearly 700! How would your office fare if 25% of the team didn’t show up?
So. Zombies? Eh, call me naive, but I’m betting that won’t happen in my lifetime (knock on wood). Earthquake? Eyebrows definitely perked up, but still so far that scenario hasn’t sent me running to the AR store. A police strike? Now there’s something that quite honestly had never occurred to me (again, call me naive). Luckily for us, the “Blue Flu” epidemic is subsiding, and so far it doesn’t appear that the criminals bothered to exploit it much. BUT, it did get me to thinking. Am I now more strongly considering higher-powered home defense options? Yes.
As I mentioned on my profile page, I am primarily a pistol chick. I know next to nothing about rifles. So, confessing my ignorance, I submit myself to the mercy of my awesome readers. What do you think? Does an inner-city resident need (not want, but need in the literal sense of the word) an AR15? Or a carbine or some other urban rifle?
47 comments on “Do I Need a “Big Scary Gun”?”
I don’t know if this has been covered before, but with proper ammo selection a rifle can have LESS penetration than a handgun,
Yep! One of the many lessons I’ve learned from trainers…
Short answer is Yes you need the AR. Please do the judicious thing and get one before the next big thing takes place and suddenly you find, you can’t get anything. There is no “shortage” for those who have prepared.
An old saying “use handgun to fight to get to rifle”.
By the way, I am another Tamara fan directed here. Glad to have found you.
While I think the m1 carbine is great and in an urban environment will do everything its called on I would choose an AR from a logistics point. A good quality used m1c will be close to an entry level AR. Magazines are a pain for the m1c but are plentiful for the AR. Mounting a red dot on an m1c is expensive too. And ammo for the carbine is hard to find and expensive.
My choice would be a brand name entry level carbine, a T1 red dot if you want to keep it light otherwise the PRO red dot (or a 1-4 Tac30 ) and a decent not quick detach mount, a 2 piint sling and 10 mags plus ammo. Should be well under 1500 if you look for low mileage used gear, might even score 1k rounds for that cost.
At the least get a 10/22 with a red dot and a case of mags. =)
Reason: I can run a pistol good but it takes practice to stay proficient. A rifle is easier to aim and shoot accurately especially with a dot. I can still shoot the center out of a clay pigeon at 80 yards with an iron sighted rifle without practice, nit so much with a pistol.
Hi Mr. Chubbins! Thanks for your insight. Even with my very limited experience with rifles I have no doubt that they’re easier to shoot accurately, if for no other reason than the fact that the firearm itself weighs more than its trigger press (unlike most pistols). And of course they are great to shoot for fun. But here’s my question: Aside from clay pigeons (thanks to Google I now know what those are :-)), what’s a hypothetical situation where I would need to hit a target that’s 80 yards away for self defense?
A rifle will provide accurate fire at a standoff distance. Basically a rifle will give you options. The application case and scenarios are up to you and you will have to think about your what ifs yourself.
Assume a NOLA situation in which you see your neighbor getting attacked down the street. If you decide to help, would you prefer to run within accurate pistol range (shouting range) or stay behind cover and lay down harassing fire? A single person coming to engage a group bent on wrong will be confronted. If the same group hears angry bees putting holes all around them they may decide abandoning their current pursuit is the best course of action. If you are sufficiently far away you can then run and hide. If you are in shouting distance and the group decides to chase you then what?
Like I said, options.
If things got to that point around my neighborhood I would need a rifle since we are surrounded by some large empty fields with some hills and plenty of cover. But I hope for the best.
One caveat. I am not familiar with your housing situation. If you live in a densely populated big town and you have many miles before the end of town then a rifle may not be the best tactic. For one your distances will be short. Second a pistol is easy to conceal and be inconspicuous with. A rifle not so much.
So whats your situation and what’s your plan?
Densely populated. Very.
Great blog! Now on my must read and, yes, thanks to Tam. On the rifle issue I’ll quote a long time sgt. I taught with in the police academy. “Handguns are there to keep me alive till I get to the trunk where the nasty s#@t lives.” Like you, I live in a big city. Like other commenters I have an AR for the “what if” scenario more than planned defense. In my case, what if I have to walk out of town, i.e. leaving NOLA ahead of Katrina. Can I dissuade bad guys, feed myself and my family and take care of all what ifs with the handguns I carry? I answered no. The real question is what rifle, AR or other. I posit that a rifle with sufficient ammo is needed. What depends on your means, needs and ultimately, what you shoot well.
Hi Michael! Thanks for commenting, and welcome aboard! Hope to hear from you often! -tgj 🙂
Just came over to your blog and read this post. I don’t know what you have for a pistol but I have a suggestion. I know there are those here who will disagree mildly (chuckle). I have a Glock 22 (40 cal). I got a MECHTEC upper that I can just put on the frame and use as a carbine when I want one. It is only $400. They also make them for other pistols so you could evaluate the site (mechtech.com) and the products they offer. Since I also have a Glock 27 I can carry a sidearm and a pistol caliber carbine (good out to 100 yds or so) using the same ammunition. For a young lady a light weight weapon with a short stock so you can reach the trigger easily is a must. Don’t forget ergonomics!!! Also another thought is a 20 ga with rifled slugs (if you can hunt deer with it you can deter most 2 footed game). Many options out there for a lot less than $1500 that will keep you safer. Hunt around, not just for an AR.
Thanks! Good to know not everyone thinks I’m completely lame for not being in the AR club!
Forgot about the Hi-Point carbiines at around $400 also. Come in 9mm, 40 and 45. Reported to be good weapons and excellent warranty backing.
Having scrolled through the comments already, much of what I would have “said” has been submitted already. I will reiterate some of that but will lead off with something I said to the family I was teraching this weekend.
“A pistol may save your life but a rifle can keep you fed and free.”
Since you’re in a “urban setting” I will endorse eith the M4 or M1 Carbines. When my Bride needed to go to Gun School we took her to Thunder Ranch for “Urban Rifle”. My reasoning was that if she were only going to know one firearm I wanted that to be a versatile and capable one – in this case I had originally purchased an M1 Carbine for her but substituted an M4 (Stag in this case) for the plentiful ammo and readily available magazines. Fortunately for me she had an absolutely enjoyable time with Clint and Heidi and wanted to go back “for more”.
I’ll also concur with those who hold that the AR-platform and 5.56mm do not qualify as “big, scary rifle”. The best and most versatile RIFLES have bores of .308. My favorites are the M14/M1A and the M1903A3.
Hi. Yet another VFTP reader. I genuinely enjoy your writing. I will weigh in on this… My training and experience have led me to believe that the superiority of a rifle is irrefutable in terms of virtually all relevant attributes. I qualify that statement with ” virtually” because in terms of concealment and portability, the sidearm wins. That is why they are what LEOs and average folks carry every day as they go about their business. In terms of critical criteria such as magazine capacity (that is, the ability to engage multiple targets and provide suppressive fire without reduced frequency of reloading), ability to easily choose ammunition to penetrate or not penetrate cover (e.g., walls, laminated auto glass, etc.) and armor, ability to effectively engage targets at medium to long range, the rifle is clearly superior. This is why the shotgun or carbine are in the trunk of the cruiser. Regardless of what the actors on TV and movies may do, those with law enforcement and military roles use rifles. I can’t generate a home invasion scenario where a handgun or shotgun is superior (and I am a Awerbuck trained scatter-gunner). Perhaps someone else can. The following Clint Smith quotes always ring true to me:
“The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down.”
“The handgun would not be my choice of weapon if I knew I was going to a fight I’d choose a rifle, a shotgun, an RPG or an atomic bomb instead.”
“They say you can’t use a rifle or shotgun indoors because a bad guy will grab the barrel. Yeah? Well, he better hang on, ‘cause I’m gonna light him up and it’ll definitely be an “E” ticket ride.” [Good CQB long gun tactics fully mitigate issues with rifle length. Consider a class like those offered at the Sig Academy.]
Handguns are a convenient compromise. They are not the best option, or really even a good option, when all else has failed, and you find yourself in an unavoidable situation requiring the use of deadly force.
I am surprised that your instructors have not provided more pragmatic, empirically-based support for their recommendation of rifle ownership. I am sure John Farnam would have said it better than I have. Also, since many mentioned the M-1 carbine, it is a reasonable option. John’s wife Vickie uses one to great effect. Using Corbon DPX ammo, it is very capable to 100 yards, and perhaps, a bit more.
Hi Mark! I’m being facetious mostly. My trainers make a lot of the same arguments that have been made here. They threaten the zombie apocalypse only in jest. I think… 🙂
I’ll agree with SportPilot above and suggest a 357 magnum lever rifle. Cowboy Action Shooting has driven the price up, and Remington (who bought Marlin a while back) hasn’t quite got a handle yet on Marlin production, but keeping an eye on the used racks and having your gun pusher (you have cultivated relationships wth a couple of FFLs, haven’t you?) watching for one, a good quality rifle in the $400-$450 range can be found.
A 20″ lever rifle holds 11 rounds – 10 in the tubular magazine, 1 in the chamber – and the velocity gain from the longer rifle barrel easily makes the 357 a 125 yard cartridge. In an urban environment, the odds on having to resolve a problem outside that distance is pretty small. Decent sights (I’m fond of Jim West’s ghost ring sights – http://www.wildwestguns.com), a lighter loading gate spring (talk to your gunsmith) and lots of reloading practice (shoot two, reload two, etc.) make it a viable rifle solution. If you think you need another 40-50 yards of effectiveness, the same lever configuration is available in 44 magnum.
AR-15s have their place, certainly, with a plethora of configurations and accessories to make the rifle fit your needs, and having 30 rounds on tap, with another 30 or 60 a quick mag change away, is comforting. Until we really do have a Zombie Apocalypse, though, providing an Enlightening Experience for the front 10 members of an approaching mob will have a profound effect on whomever’s left. And, if it’s judged 11 rounds isn’t enough, a second identical rifle can provide 11 more, and you’ve still not broken the threshold of a grand out of pocket. Watch some videos of Cowboy Action matches and you’ll see just how effective – and fast – a lever rifle can be.
Lever guns are popular, so if you decide at some point to embrace the AR, resale should be easy.
Another Tam reader here.
I got this story from AR15.com, IIRC. A guy fumbled his Glock 9mm in his home, standing on a carpeted area. He grabbed at it, to keep it from hitting the floor ( carpet + Glock, no problem). He hit the trigger, and the gun fired. Police were summoned (don’t recall who), and cited him for discharging within city limits, and took the gun. They traced the path of the bullet. It exited his house (at least one wall) went completely through a second house, and was found somewhere inside a THIRD house. No humans or pets were harmed. I don’t recall the total number of walls it passed through, but it has to be at least 4.
A friend had an ND (negligible discharge) at home with a 7.62 NATO caliber rifle. It hit a stud in the first wall, and exited in two pieces. The pieces then ripped through the control panel (sheet metal) of a clothes dryer, through an external wall, ricocheted off another external wall (flat angle, just left lead smears), hit a redwood board fence, and fell to the ground.
The 5.56 NATO round used in the AR15 is even more delicate than the 7.62, when it comes to house walls. This is one of the two basic reasons why SWAT type units are switching to the 5.56 caliber weapon in place of 9mm subguns. The second reason is it is a better manstopper.
I have 80 hours with my AR (Jim Crews and Clint Smith) and like it almost as much as my shotgun for home defense. Mounted light, 18 rounds in the gun, very precise, and as others have pointed out a slightly better penetration risk than other options (especially since I’m more likely to get a hit). Shotguns deliver more hate so I like them more, but if I had to slow clear my way out of the house the rifle is a lot lighter and easier to keep at ready.
All that said, my pistol is adequate for home defense, and in a home with a toddler is easier to secure and will give me a hand free to scruff said midget and unass him manually if required. I focus nearly all my practice on my pistols now, and treat long guns as toys; I actually sold a SOCOM16 not long ago to better stock up on pistol anno. As far as training goes, there are just way too many good things out there that need experienced — not just pistol work, but the whole Shivworks catalog. Maybe when I retire, I’ll go back to my homliest Colt, but for now pistols are where it’s at for me.
Just wanted to point out that a typical AR-15 is a centerfire .22, which puts it at the small end of the rifle caliber spectrum, not the large end. Against a bear, an AR would be a whole lot less useful than a full-power rifle would be.
Where the AR shines is (1) light recoil; (2) accuracy; (3) less risk of overpenetration in the defensive role (assuming JHP) than most pistols, larger caliber rifles, or even 00 buckshot; and (4) reserve capacity, because those little .223 rounds take up less space than bigger rifle rounds do.
Hey benEzra! You’re not the first to point out to me that an AR-15 is no match for a bear, LOL. I’m learning! So many thanks to everybody who made me a little bit smarter today. For all the AR-15 aficionados, I have now changed my post to reference a mysterious fill-in-the-blank predator instead of a bear! Keep the wisdom coming… -tgj 🙂
Not even legal for deer in Washington – too small. AR-10 (.308/7.62). Then again, 5.56 ammo is much cheaper – and if you’re not shooting deer….
While I can hit targets at 50 yards with my pistol – I have to really get creative to think of reasons I might need to – all of those reasons would have me resorting to a rifle. I like carbines – they’re fun – I’ve got a .44mag lever carbine, I’ve looked at getting a .45 ACP carbine – if someone drops one on my door step – I’ll take it but for the moment – probably not.
An AR with a 6.8 upper would be though.
You’ve mentioned you’re in a city. Your most likely threat at that point is a large group of people. So I submit that a pistol cal. carbine with sufficient capacity would serve you just as well as an AR15 for 95% of your potential uses. Anything that requires an AR in a city is most likely going to require friends with AR’s.
Short answer, if you have a shotgun and are comfortable with it, a rifle can stay on your “Nice to have but not right now” list.
Long answer: It is about mitigating risk. I did the following personal risk analysis a couple decades ago, and I am comfortable with my conclusions based on it.
Of the 100 possible times I might need a firearm, the first, say, 50% could be handled by someone with a .22 revolver and confidence (bad guy shows up and is scared off by the presence of the firearm in the hands of a determined citizen).
The next 30% could be handled with a that or a standard caliber personal defense sidearm (perhaps a determined attacker that must be disabled, not just dissuaded). Now I’ve covered about 80% of the likely times I might need a firearm for personal protection.
The next 15% of the risk on my list can be dealt with by either a much more powerful sidearm or a rifle or shotgun (I fish annually in remote parts of southeast Alaska, so either a magnum revolver, a 10mm auto, a shotgun, or a rifle (not necessarily an AR type) is a necessity). These are the situations that require more power, more precision or more range. So now I’m at about 95% of the possible times I might need a firearm to defend myself. With the above choices I’m limited to about 50 yards with a magnum revolver or a shotgun, and no more than 5-6 rounds, so those limitations would have to be addressed with some other choice if I want to cover the last 5% of potential risk.
For the AR to be necessary, we’re talking about roving biker gangs, mob violence, multiple wild animals at close range, or a persistent and skilled aggressor at a distance of over 50 yards IN CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE IT MIGHT BE LEGAL FOR ME TO USE DEADLY FORCE. We’re now down to pretty oddball occurrences, and how to mitigate the risk they might present. An AR (or something like one) would work well for those few times.
An AR can also work well for about 80% of the rest of the problems mentioned above, but an AR is a substantial burden and would not be the first choice for most of them. Imagine your usual day: Can you carry an AR while grocery shopping? Target would rather you not, but they won’t ask about or kick you out if you carry a concealed pistol there. Can you deter a late night unwanted visitor in your house with an AR? Absolutely, but your neighbors are going to think you’re weird if, every time the wind blows your garbage can into the garage door, you show up carrying an M4 with all the fixings. They won’t know if you’ve got a sidearm in the pocket of your bathrobe, though.
I used to counsel people that, if you buy a quality sidearm that can be concealed, a .22 for practice, and some sort of long gun (shotgun or rifle), you are well covered for most of the problems you are ever likely to face. Nobody can be protected from everything. From your description, I’d say you are well equipped for your likely needs.
When time, finances and circumstances permit, you should consider getting a rifle some day. Col. Cooper used to tell his students that the rifle is the Queen of weaponry, and that, when it is time, they should take the opportunity to get acquainted with royalty.
FormerFlyer, another Tam reader who followed the link. I like what I’ve read so far!
Wow! Thank you sooooooo much for the very thoughtful and very practical answer! Thoughtfulness and practicality are two of my favorite things. Extremely helpful advice. I hope I can look forward to more pearls of wisdom from you in the future! -tgj 🙂
That’s quite a compliment. Thank you.
I’ll try to share a bit without wearing out my welcome. Please use appropriate force if I become overly verbose or obnoxious.
Keep up the good work!
Oh, I’ve got no room to complain about anybody being verbose!
Figuring your odds on scenarios is fine until you’re suddenly, unexpectedly in the middle of your least likely one. Then it’s 100%. Hope for the best, but plan and train for the worst.
Oh wow! Do you need a BSG well not necessarily & your reasoning along the lines of a shotgun are quite good. Particularly if you’ve taken a defensive SG course. As to the rifle a 5.56 M4gry isn’t the first thing I’d grab if I needed a rifle and I’ve trained a lot with one. An excellent home defense, small game hunting or fun shooter would be a 357 Magnum Marlin 1894. Its also doesn’t scream tactical cool or big nasty gun to the media and public at large. For what its worth I’ve seen the after effects of shootings involving a lowly .410 single shot shotgun and attest to its lethality in a deranged shooters hands. There’s little doubt it would be an equally effective defensive firearm in a determined home defenders hands. BTW I know more about disaster management and what’ll happen to Memphis if the NMF shifts than I ever wanted to know.
Really? That sounds ominous! Perhaps one day I’ll pick your brain on our disaster forecast so I can be prepared! -tgj 🙂
Do your due diligence on where you live, keep a 72 hour bail out bag at work, in your vehicle(s) and immediately at hand at home. Take a CERT Community Emergency Response Team training course and always have an egress plan. In your case it largely depends on where you are in the city should the worst happen. An agile mind is a formidable survival tool. Yep I’m a CERT Instructor CEPTED trained and lots of other applicable tidbits. What can I say I was a curious copper who wondered how stuff worked.
The down side to lever guns is they can be slower to reload than shotguns sometimes. Colt used to make a 9mm version if the AR that would work well but I don’t think it’s in production anymore.
As an aside to MV’s excellent comment regarding reloading a lever action rifle…reloading a lever action rifle in active use is much akin to running a pump shotgun…continuously top it off. Its about mindset and training. Urban rifles don’t always have to be semi autos, know your tactics and keep in the game. I agree on the 9mm AR and for that the Beretta CX4 and like are equally good. In the end the only dangerous weapon is the tool user. Keep an open mind and prepare to be surprised.
Rifle: because it’s certainly conceivable that you may need to express your displeasure at a distance.
The AR-15 in 5.56 is an excellent all-round choice. IMNSHO, a VERY serviceable AR can be had for about $600; the S&W M&P-15 Sport. The wife has one – in pink. Tacticool.
I’ll vouch for the m&p 15 if your seriously considering an AR-15. I paid just over $700 for mine here in PA (Philadelphia). It came with an MBUS on the rail, factory zeroed to 25 yards, and included one PMAG and a flexible padlock style lock. I added a sling and light first thing to make it effective in a home defense situation.
In regard to over-penetration, there are plenty of resources to get info about how certain rounds from certain firearms perform through drywall, cinder blocks, etc… my favorite is the box of truth. In the link I’ve provided you can see that a 12 guage loaded with reduced recoil doesn’t penetrate any less than an ar-15 firing m193 ball ammo. The difference is that the rifle round is a single projectile, while the shotgun sends multiple projectiles in an ever expanding pattern into the adjacent rooms/yards/houses. In a self defense situation, you will be accountable for all of them.
Obviously the best way to mitigate the damage that could potentially occur is to not miss the bad guy in the first place. While ammo selection does play an important role in this situation, the most effective way to pick your weapon is to use the one you are most proficient with at the longest distance inside your house. If that’s not the AR-15 for you, use something else, or if you want it to be, train up.
It’s actually worse than that. 2200 total spread over all divisions and shifts would mean, at best, 750 or so on duty at a time. No wonder they were calling Shelby County for help.
As a lawman, the idea of a “Blue Flu” protest bothers me. We swear an oath to uphold the law and (basically) protect the people of our town or county. Mass sick outs, I think betray that oath. If they feel they’re being cropped on by the politicians, they have limited ways to protest the mistreatment but there must be other ways.
And as a knuckle dragged from way back, I still like a 12 gauge. With the right ammo, a 5.56 rifle won’t penetrate worse than a pistol round but if you’re not a fan, don’t get one. And as someone else mentioned, the M1 carbine would be a good option also.
Don M: There are magazine fed shotguns in 3-gun, but they are only allowed in Open class and they often have function problems.
Gerry is correct about overpenetration, several authors have done the test and the 5.56mm tends to tumble easily.
If I were worried about bears, the AR wouldn’t be my first choice, not enough power.
Glad to see you posting Tiffany, interested to watch you grow in the shooting world.
Have a quick read of this – http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4334-Home-Defense-Long-Guns
I have a bunch of rifles. I would recommend to you a M-1 Carbine rather than an AR-15. It is as good as ever it was, and is out of fashion, so cheaper.
You can minimize the over-penetration with the correct choice of ammo, especially with a 5.56.
Your 9 or 40 pistol bullets will tend to go farther through dry wall and block than a rifle bullet in that caliber.
Rifles are easier to shoot accurately than pistols and have less recoil than shotguns. I had one when I lived in a city because I thought it was the best trade off. I have a few more now that I live in the country. They are like potato chips, one is not enough.
I would suggest getting some gunny friends and try out some of their rifles at a range. Then gets some training from Tom or John Farnam .
Lastly, it’s America, if you don’t like it, you can sell it or trade it on a different one.
I’m enjoying your writing. Tam had a link to it.
Thanks, Gerry! -tgj 🙂
Ease of reloading alone makes a carbine worthwhile. 3 gun competitors sail through pistol & rifle reloads but the shotgun is ALWAYS the slowest.
The concerns about ‘playground dwellers’ might actually be higher with pistol rounds and buckshot/slugs. Carbines using light, fast lead core bullets don’t go through as many walls intact and don’t have patterns that spread out.
Plus, they’re just plain fun and prices are coming down.
Z-Apocalypse is hardly on my WGAS list…groups of thinking, breathing ne’er-do-wells are a much more immediate concern.
I am surprised that 3 gun competitions don’t have special magazine fed shot guns. Certainly double stack extended magazine race guns dominated IPSC for years because their larger capacity reduced the need to reload.
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